The Secret To Successful Podcasting with the Host of Thirst Aid Kit

Desire is to the internet as oxygen is to the air: essential, crucial, inextricable. It’s the reason we have YouTube and Google Image Search; it’s the reason Tumblr’s site traffic dropped 30 percent after banning NSFW (not safe for work) content; it’s the reason why, perhaps in spite of your best efforts, you know how to spell “Timothée Chalamet.” It’s the thing that brought Thirst Aid Kit hosts Nichole Perkins and Bim Adewunmi together: “We met on Twitter. We kind of found ourselves in a similar Twitter circle,” Adewunmi told Color Vision, “and then we found that we had a lot of pop culture opinions, and, a lot of the time, they kind of tallied… and so we became online friends.”

Adewunmi and Perkins use Thirst Aid Kit to explore the ins and outs of thirst: who we want, what we want, why we want them. Each week the pair dives deep into the well of desire, waxing poetic about their favorite Hollywood hunks, including Keanu Reeves, Mahershala Ali, Oscar Isaac, Sterling K. Brown, and more. It features exclusive interviews with exciting leading men like Chris Evans (Avengers franchise, Knives Out), Charlie Cox (Stardust, Daredevil), Raleigh Ritchie (Game of Thrones), and more.

But Thirst Aid Kit—known to its fans as TAK—is nothing so simple as a “Who’s Hot” list. Adewunmi and Perkins have set out to interrogate the politics of who we desire, highlighting each “thirst object” not only for their merits but also as part of a more extensive system of desirability. Why do certain people resonate with specific audiences? How does “the female gaze” effect value? As black women and experienced cultural critics, they are uniquely qualified to answer these questions and more. We sat down with Adewunmi and Perkins to discuss race, desire, career advice, and the rewards of loving what you do.

COLOR VISION: How would you say that your experiences as black women have influenced the way that you desire and speak about thirst? 

NICHOLE PERKINS: Getting to a point where I could talk about desire, sex, and sexuality openly was a journey—I’m from the South, and one of the things that are very important in girlhood is not to come across as “fast” or too sexual. I’ve always been very fascinated with sex and desire, and the way people express affection on a physical level, as well as on a romantic level, just gestures [in general]. So I was very frustrated that I could not express that curiosity, I could not show that fascination without somebody thinking that that meant that I was a sex worker or that I was sleeping with everybody that I came in contact with. And so, from there, I’ve just kind of been like, no, I want to be able to talk about this. And if men can talk about it—if they can do this whole “boys will be boys” thing, if they get to have their locker-room talk everywhere, at the dinner table, in restaurants, or just wherever—we can have our girl-talk wherever. I think for black women because we have these hypersexual stereotypes to fight against, that’s also a part of why I want to talk about desire openly and without shame and encourage other women to do that and to let them know that they can talk about it wherever they are on the spectrum of sexuality, it’s okay! As long as they are making informed choices about whatever it is that they want to do, and they’re making sure that they’re satisfied, that’s what’s important to me. That’s how I approach the podcast.

BIM ADEWUNMI: I think it’s essential that we are two straight black women talking about this stuff, but I also believe that it manifests in the way we communicate. I think it’s vital that both Nichole and I are black women talking to one another and, under that, to other people, but I think it shows up in our conversation, it shows up in the language, it shows up in the way we talk to one another. I feel very open to Nichole. I feel like we’ve developed a bit of a shorthand, also—obviously what listeners hear is what we say, but there’s a lot of stuff that we don’t say but communicate, whether through a look or an exhalation. And there are times when we describe what we’re doing because obviously, the listener can’t see—there are times when Nichole will narrow her eyes in a certain way, or put her hand on the table, fingers splayed in a particular way, and I’m like, oh, I know what that means. And it’s nice to be able to have that community, I suppose, where we don’t explain certain things because it feels organic and natural. So that’s one of the joys of me coming to work, I think, is that I work in a room with this woman who kind of gets me, and who I get. And that is, it turns out, incredibly important to just making me feel like I can do a good job. We are coming to it as colossal pop culture fans, but fans who have been placed in a very specific place, and who have been given a very limited buffet, in general. So we are talking about people who are known, and some people who aren’t that well known, but we’re trying, at the very core of it, to just kind of explain and explore, to think about it—we talk about it as critique, which is so much more complicated than just us going into a room and yelling our thoughts out. It’s thinking about stuff and trying to marry it to broader trends.

CV: You’ve done episodes on some people who don’t necessarily fall into the most popular categories of “typical Hollywood hot guy.” Do you have a formula for who you pick?

NP: We want to make sure that it’s someone that we can both talk about, eloquently, and thirstily. So it has to be somebody that we’re both familiar with—there are times Bim may be more familiar with someone than I will be, or vice versa, but we just try to give each other room to educate each other in the same way that we’re educating our listeners. So first of all, like I said, we have to both like the person, and secondly, it has to be someone that, yeah, we do think is maybe overlooked for whatever reason. Of course, we’re gonna talk about someone big, like a Keanu, that everyone knows and loves. But we also want to talk about up-and-coming people and give them their props. We’re trying to chisel away at what is desirable—or what we’re told is worthy of our desire. We often try to stay away from blonde and blue, and whenever we do end up with someone who has blonde hair and blue eyes, we express [groan]. We don’t want to like this person, but there’s no denying their face, or whatever. So we’re trying to chip away at the way Hollywood and the American public forces us to just accept someone because they happen to white and tall with blue eyes.

BA: The listeners, who we call thirst buckets, are remarkably vocal. They are a very engaged audience, which is fantastic. We get lots of messages, just about, “Thanks for just being there. Thanks for saying stuff that I have been thinking about or have thought about.” There’s another genre [of message] which I find personally kind of like, huh? When people say, “Thanks so much for making it okay to fancy this non-black guy,” and I’m like, “Sis, you can fancy anyone.”

NP: Yeah, that’s what I’m thinking of. Race relations are so fraught still in America, and again, because we’ve been taught that the most beautiful people in the world are fair-skinned or white people, then you try to resist that because we know that there are millions of other lovely people besides white people. So sometimes it can lead to people having conflicts about their desire and so when anyone who’s listening tells us that they—I don’t know, they get this relief. There’s a relief they have when they talk to us about—I don’t want to say that we’re giving them permission, but we’re just kind of letting them know, it’s okay, and it doesn’t mean you’re a race traitor or that you deny who you are or you’re not a real black person or anything like that. It’s just; desire wants what it wants. If someone is beautiful, if someone is nice and they’re kind, they’re just nice and kind and beautiful. However, you see beauty is enough, and you should just go with it.

BA: I think there’s also something about, in terms of race, I think there’s also just a simple thing, where people—like Nichole said, we’re not giving permission or anything—but it’s always interesting that people go, “Thank you for giving me the idea that I’m not alone.” But what I will also say that I’m really glad of is that people are questioning race, and are thinking, like Nichole said, “Do I fancy him because he’s tall, or because he’s actually hot?” And the answer is, he’s just a tall white dude. That’s it. And that questioning , I think, is the thing that’s important. And we try not to do the very—I mean we do a lot of obvious movie stars, but there are some people who are kind of like, “Oh, I’d never thought about that person.” And we’re like, “We know.” There’s a reason why you never thought about them. But I think—you know, every so often, somebody will go, “Oh, thanks for telling me race doesn’t matter,” and we go, “No, that’s not what we said.” We are including it in the formula; we’re including it as part of the alchemy that makes somebody a thirst object. You should not be discounting it. It’s something to think about for sure, but it’s not the thing that should wholly negate everything else either as well. We’re trying to be, above all things, thoughtful. We just want everybody to be thoughtful. And like we say a lot, we don’t prescribe that who we fancy is who you must fancy. We’re just kind of saying, “Hey, here might be some reasons why and why not.” It’s about just thinking about stuff, as opposed to a hard yes or a hard no.

CV: In addition to the podcast, TAK hosts live events, like Thirsty Movie Screenings. What have your favorite episodes or events been?

BA: Each episode is like a tiny child. A tiny thirst baby. We hope it shows that we care deeply about what we do. We think it’s important; we think it’s necessary. I don’t know if I have a favorite episode. There’s a moment in every episode where I just kind of smile to myself and I’m like, “This is a good episode.” I mean that. I do mean that. I think are some people who we’ve loved for a very long time—the Keanu episode from the first season, the John Cho episode, these are people we’ve carried torches for forever, and I think the chance to kind of vomit all your feelings out with someone who gets it, is perfect. I don’t know, I love all our guests, I love everything—but I will say that, for me, literally every week, the best thing is talking to Nichole. The guests are great—the celebrity ones, our friends, whoever, they’re fantastic—but I think it’s important because we enjoy each other’s company, we love talking about this stuff together, and I think that’s what shows. It’s this really, oftentimes, quite emotional [thing]. I think we are very honest on the show, I think we write very honestly, we think very honestly, and that’s the joy of it for me: is that, every single week, I get to go to the studio for a couple hours with my friend, we just laugh, and then, somehow, a show is made from that. I’m in heaven every time.

NP: People tell us that, when they come to a movie screening or they’re listening to the show, it feels like an adult sleepover, and that’s kind of how it feels in the studio—that we get this break from the outside world. Even though this is something professional in our lives, we have this little break from everything, and we’re able to provide a break for other people as everyone is focused on all of this stuff that’s going on right now—climate change, protests, the President, all the different politics. They just have this moment, for like 45 minutes to an hour, where they’re like, “I’m gonna giggle with somebody.” That’s great. I love that part. I do have a favorite interview: Wilson Bethel, who played on Daredevil and is now on All Rise on CBS, and he was on Hart of Dixie on the CW. I was so charmed by him. He was a fun interview, and he was willing to go back and forth with us. I liked that interview, and I also love when our listeners find new things. I love sharing the things that I love! All of that, I think, comes across in the podcast. We both love recommending stuff, sharing what we like, and putting people onto new things.

CV: Do you have any advice for other black women in media or female creatives?

BA: I would say a big thing for me—in the course of my career and not for just Thirst Aid Kit—has been to just gather up as much information as possible. I think one of the worst things that happens is when you go into something half-cocked and then it doesn’t work out, and you’re like ah, it didn’t work out—which is something I’ve been guilty of. This is not me pointing my finger at anyone. It’s just factual. I think, for so many people, there is a lack of understanding of what a specific thing might take, and it’s not always apparent. That’s why you have to go digging for the information to find out what it is that you need in order to do stuff. I think I’m very aware of the fact that I’ve been very lucky. This is something that I’ve always wanted to do, and I get to do the stuff that I wanted to do as a child. I’m a journalist, I’m a writer, I’m a producer, I do a podcast with my friend—this feels very much like, oh my god, the dream. But the road to it is not necessarily smooth, and you should just be prepared for that. I think, just the feeling of understanding that things come at very different paces to what you might expect, but that doesn’t mean you should stop, it doesn’t mean you should not consider it. And also, the other thing to remember that, you know, failure is part of it, and you just get up and do it again. Which I don’t think is very much news to many women of color, who know very much that things don’t always pan out, but you get up, and you try again. I think that, for me, has been a constant thing of just like, well, that didn’t work out… cool! I’m not dead yet. Let’s try something else. Many greater, much greater people have failed and come out the other side. Obviously, it’s tough in the moment, and the moment can stretch for years—let’s be very clear—but… it’s possible. I try to look at things very much 50/50. Either it will work out, or it won’t. And so just work as though it will. Which sounds so Pollyanna, but that’s the only way to do it.

NP: So the first thing I want to say: be passionate about what you want to do. And secondly, I think I would say: figure out if something is a long game or a short game. So there are times when you need to assert yourself, and there are times when you need to be like, “Okay, I’ve noted this, I’m gonna let it go for now, and then I’m gonna move to the next thing.” That’s with any job, right? Where you’re like, “Do I talk about this woman who just touched my hair, or do I just let it go for now, and then the next time I’ll say something to her? Do I bring up the guy who stole my idea in the meeting? How do I go about it?” You have to figure out a way, I think—you know, I’m a little older, so I don’t want to make this a generational thing, but I think social media has made people feel like they have to respond to something immediately, they have to air their grievance immediately, instead of sitting with it, talking to a friend. There has been some stuff where people have done some stuff to us, to Thirst Aid Kit, and I just show it to Bim, we talk about it, and then we move on. It would not behoove us to blast them on Twitter or anything like that. We just need to move on. But we note it, we don’t fool with those people anymore, and we keep it going. And that way, they can’t eat off of us. So figure out the best way to move forward when something is trying to pull you back, whatever that may be, whether it’s just your fundamental sexism or racism is in the workplace, or your own people hating against you, trying to take opportunities from you—figure out the best way to approach it. Always just going on Twitter or sending out an open letter on medium, or something like that, that is not always the best way to go. You may be justified, and that person who wronged you may get their just desserts, but then other people are seeing that, and they become like, “Hmm, she’s a little troublemaker.” Which, you know, can work in your favor sometimes. It’s just… other people notice besides the people that you think your grievance is going to, so just be mindful of that.

BA: Be strategic. Not everyday, like Nichole, said, hop on Medium. That has merits, and I think, a lot of times, the thing that is making that happen is a sort of frustration that something is going wrong, and shouldn’t everyone say something? And I think that’s absolutely true, but I also think we all kind of have to think about the best practice of how to kind of be in whatever ecosystem we’re in. Like Nichole said also, this is the other thing as well: I hesitate because I’m an elder millennial. So I’m very aware of my place in the spectrum of millennial life. But I also think, yeah, for sure, there are some things that I just think, ah, that’s the way they used to do stuff. And that’s fine if it doesn’t work for you, and this isn’t, again, it’s not a prescription, it’s just an idea, something to consider. But I’m very reticent about things about things that I just kind of think, eh, that’ll pass, and I think it’s important to just like Nichole said, shoutout to the group chat! That is such an important part of just navigating your life!

NP: Yes!

BA: You don’t have to take that [stuff] to twitter. You can just kind of be like, look at this mess, and put it to your five of six amazing friends. They give you the feedback; you have a discussion, you close the case. It’s like being in court. It’s like bang the gavel; case adjourned, next. And then should we need to refer to the old case, it’s in your DMs. It’s fine! You don’t have to be on the internet going, oh guys, come look at this!

NP: And again, that’s not to say you should not assert yourself, that you should let people walk over you. Not at all. You definitely need to let people know, “I’m here. I know what I’m talking about, I’m good at this job, you can’t take that away from me.” But again, is being loud and wrong on the internet worth the little chip in your career? I’m telling you, I have learned this. Because I tend to knee-jerk a lot—I am a very passionate person, and I see something, and I immediately want to respond. I’m impulsive and hot-headed, I immediately want to respond, and I don’t. I just kind of keep scrolling, I put on some music, I text Bim, I text some of my other friends, whatever… get it out, and a lot of times, you’ll find more information comes out. So many times, there’s like this big pile-on on Twitter, and if people had just waited a day, they would not have to issue an apology. Just wait! Just walk away for a second and then come back to it, and if you still feel that actively, find the appropriate people to contact privately, and then go from there. And you’ll find a lot of people will respect discussion, they’ll understand: this person knows how to hold water, this person knows how to be a professional. Because if you’re gonna get on the internet and talk bad about a celebrity interview you just had, or you just talk bad about some PR person or whatever, they’re always watching.

BA: That’s it. I want that to be like a new cheerleader chant: “Be strategic! Be, be strategic!” Like you can’t just… no word vomit. Let’s calm that down. But also, like Nichole said, sometimes you have to go and do the thing you have to do. So this is not a kind of like, let’s return to civility. That’s not what this is. This is a simple case of just like—think about yourself. Put yourself first. And yeah—do you want to be loud and wrong?

NP: And I think for us as black women, in particular, we can support each other, but we need to recognize that we don’t necessarily have to like each other, and that’s okay. We can support and defend each other publicly, and still not fool with each other away from stuff, and that’s perfectly fine. We don’t all have to be best friends, but you don’t need to sabotage anybody else either. I mention like taking opportunities from someone or trying to make sure that opportunities don’t go to anyone else. Sometimes it’s a part of the game, but still, it’s unnecessary, I think. But if we give ourselves permission to defend publicly and then quietly dislike—if that’s what needs to happen, that’s okay. It’s fine if we don’t like each other as people, because we’re human beings and not everybody’s gonna get along, but that doesn’t mean that you have to backstab or be mean to each other or talk about each other in public. I’m very much a put on a nice face, say hello, be cordial, be polite, and keep it moving [type of person].

BA: Right. Because we all understand that we’re operating in the same capitalist [mess]. Like we all know, and what affects me might well affect you, so this is not a case of trying to put yourself above something else. But like Nichole said, we don’t have to be best friends. The sight of you can irritate me, but I also understand that you’re a black woman in the workplace, and there is some shit that happens to black women in the workplace, and we can all see it. And afterward, it’s kind of like alright, close tab. Move on with your day. And that’s fine! I’d rather that than any number of other ridiculous scenarios. I just like the idea of us being able to all coexist in the same ecosystem and not tear each other apart.

NP: And you have to remember that nobody can take your talent away from you. Whatever skillset you bring to that job, that’s yours, and they can’t take it away from you. You’re here because you’re talented, you’re smart, you’re worthy of this space, you’re worthy of where you’re about to go, and whatever goals that you have. Other people are going to try to keep you down because your talent highlights how mediocre they are, and they’re jealous. It’s real; it’s really real.